So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. JAD: No, I actually, like even this morning it's already like poof! Yeah. ], [ALVIN UBELL: And Alvin Ubell. ROBERT: She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. ROBERT: Begins with a woman. ROBERT: These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. They need light to grow. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. JENNIFER FRAZER: So there's these little insects that lives in the soil, these just adorable little creatures called springtails. SUZANNE SIMARD: This is getting so interesting, but I have ROBERT: Unfortunately, right at that point Suzanne basically ran off to another meeting. It just kept curling and curling. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. ROBERT: So the roots can go either left or to the right. What do you mean? It's just this incredible communications network that, you know, people had no idea about in the past, because we couldn't -- didn't know how to look. ROBERT: Science writer Jen Frazer gave us the kind of the standard story. Well, some of them can first of all, and big deal. ROBERT: These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. ROBERT: But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just going to run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? It's okay, puppy. So you can get -- anybody can get one of these plants, and we did. ROBERT: How do you mean? I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. ROBERT: When you go into a forest, you see a tree, a tall tree. And you don't see it anywhere. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. Well, they do it because the tree has something the fungus needs, and the fungus has something the tree needs. ROBERT: Huh. That's what she says. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." Hey, it's okay. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. LATIF: It's like Snow White and The Seven Tubes or something. ROBERT: But what -- how would a plant hear something? It's gone. So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? I can scream my head off if I want to. ROBERT: So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. Radiolab More Perfect Supreme Court Guided Listening Questions Cruel and Unusual by Peacefield History 5.0 (8) $1.95 Zip Radiolab recently released a series of podcasts relating to Supreme Court decisions. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. JENNIFER FRAZER: Then he would bring them the meat and he would ring a bell. When they did this, they saw that a lot of the springtails that had the tubes inside them were still alive. JENNIFER FRAZER: Oh, yeah. ROBERT: She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. Because I have an appointment. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. And then I would cover them in plastic bags. That apparently -- jury's still out. ROBERT: This is the fungus. And then they do stuff. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. LINCOLN TAIZ: Yes. ROBERT: His name is Roy Halling. And I need a bird, a lot of birds, actually. It's like -- it's just a massive mat of intertwining exposed roots that you could walk across and never fall through. ANNIE MCEWEN: What was your reaction when you saw this happen? So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. Listen to one of these podcasts: (Read the summaries and choose the one you want) Radiolab - Update: CRISPR Radiolab - Cellmates Radiolab - Shrink Radiolab - From Tree to Shining Tree Radiolab - Antibodies Part 1: CRISPR Radiolab - Galapagos Radiolab - Smarty Plants Radiolab - Super Cool For the main post please include: Title Like a human would. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. It was like, Oh, I might disturb my plants!" ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. It just kept curling and curling. JENNIFER FRAZER: Minerals from the soil. And again. They learned something. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Well, okay. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. They still did not close when she dropped them. You do. And lignin is full of nitrogen, but also compounds like nitrogen is important in DNA, right? Are you bringing the plant parade again? And of course we had to get Jigs out. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. Ring, meat, eat. So she decided to conduct her experiment. ROBERT: And he pokes it at this little springtail, and the springtail goes boing! Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. Pulled out a is that a root of some sort? ROBERT: It's kind of -- it's shaped like MONICA GAGLIANO: Like the letter Y, but upside down. Is it, like -- is it a plant? Is that what -- is that what this? Whatever. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. One tree goes "Uh-oh." The bell, the meat and the salivation. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? Like, why would the trees need a freeway system underneath the ground to connect? ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? That's what she says. ROBERT: Oh! And might as well start the story back when she was a little girl. ROBERT: So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? We went and looked for ourselves. It was magic for me. They're some other kind of category. ROBERT: And they're digging and digging and digging. Can you make your own food? Don't interrupt. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. They learned something. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. JAD: You're doing the -- like, okay first it was the roots under the ground all connected into a whole hive thing. Wait a second. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. ], Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. The next one goes, "Uh-oh." It's yours." Is that what -- is that what this? ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. JENNIFER FRAZER: Right? ROBERT: What do mean, the fungi will give me my sugar back? She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. On the outside of the pipe. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. Let him talk. ROBERT: This happens to a lot of people. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. No. So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. Well, it depends on who you ask. ROBERT: And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. let's do it! It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. And it was almost like, let's see how much I have to stretch it here before you forget. And so I don't have a problem with that. With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. They're all out in the forest. In this case, a little blue LED light. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. And she was willing to entertain the possibility that plants can do something like hear. They shade each other. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! ROBERT: Smaller than an eyelash. And might as well start the story back when she was a little girl. I don't know. That would be sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. This assignment pairs with the RadioLab podcast; specifically the Smarty Plants episode. So they didn't. Handheld? MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. And I know lots of kids do that, but I was especially ROBERT: I'm sorry? So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. They can also send warning signals through the fungus. ROBERT: Well of course, there could be a whole -- any number of reasons why, you know, one tree's affected by another. [ASHLEY: Hi. It's now the Wood Wide Web? JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. And Jigs at some point just runs off into the woods, just maybe to chase a rabbit. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. Radiolab Smarty Plants. They still remembered. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah, it might run out of fuel. ALVIN UBELL: If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. And of course we had to get Jigs out. And so why is that? That is definitely cool. Episodes. LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. It just kept curling. Okay. I don't know. Like trees of different species are supposed to fight each other for sunshine, right? ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. JAD: Wait a second. There's not a leak in the glass. Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. So now, they had the radioactive particles inside their trunks and their branches. And on this particular day, she's with the whole family. You just used a very interesting word. They still did not close when she dropped them. ROBERT: Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. MONICA GAGLIANO: So, you know, I'm in the dark. Is your dog objecting to my analysis? -- they spring way up high in the air. She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. ROBERT: And the idea was, she wanted to know like, once the radioactive particles were in the tree, what happens next? And then Monica would Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. On the outside of the pipe. Like, would they figure it out faster this time? MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" Picasso! But this one plays ROBERT: So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. Smaller than an eyelash. What the team found is the food ends up very often with trees that are new in the forest and better at surviving global warming. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. And then all the other ones go in the same direction. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. They still remembered. 2016. ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. Did Jigs emerge? ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. They sort of put them all together in a dish, and then they walked away. And then I would cover them in plastic bags. It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in And toilet paper. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. You're doing the -- like, okay first it was the roots under the ground all connected into a whole hive thing. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. Okay? And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. Same as the Pavlov. In my brain. They definitely don't have a brain. ROBERT: Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. ALVIN UBELL: Testing one, two. ], [ROY HALLING: Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Andy Mills, Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. Just read about plants having brains and doing things that we honestly do not expect them. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. MONICA GAGLIANO: I don't know. We dropped. Like trees of different species are supposed to fight each other for sunshine, right? It should have some. ROBERT: She says it was like this moment where she realizes, "Oh, my God! Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? Every one of them. ], Our fact-checkers are Eva Dasher and Michelle Harris. But they do have root hairs. Her use of metaphor. Fan, light, lean. . Pics! A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. Maybe there's some kind of signal? The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. Radiolab - Smarty Plants . Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising . [laughs]. SUZANNE SIMARD: And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. Let me just back up for a second so that you can -- to set the scene for you. I mean, couldn't it just be like that? And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. ROBERT: They're father and son. JENNIFER FRAZER: It's definitely crazy. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." ROBERT: Huh. Artificial Plants Aquarium Substrate Backgrounds Gravel, Sand & Stones Live Plants Ornaments Plant Food & Fertilizers Heating & Lighting Heaters Hoods & Glass Canopies Heating & Lighting Accessories Lights Live Fish Goldfish, Betta & More Starter Kits bird Bird Shops Food & Treats Pet Bird Food Treats ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. It's not leaking. Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. Same as the Pavlov. They will send out a "Oh, no! My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" That's amazing and fantastic. So you think that that this -- you think this is a hubris corrector? So there is some water outside of the pipe. The fungi, you know, after it's rained and snowed and the carcass has seeped down into the soil a bit, the fungi then go and they drink the salmon carcass down and then send it off to the tree. The bell, the meat and the salivation. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. MONICA GAGLIANO: Or would just be going random? LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. They're father and son. ROBERT: And then she waited a few more days and came back. And again. Nothing delicious at all.". I found a little water! LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. ROBERT: Well, so what's the end of the story? We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. Picasso! But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. No. On the outside of the pipe. JENNFER FRAZER: Well, they do it because the tree has something the fungus needs, and the fungus has something the tree needs. Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? I mean, I think there's something to that. She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? Wait. We went and looked for ourselves. ROBERT: That there was a kind of a moral objection to thinking it this way. Our store also offers Grooming, Training, Adoptions, Veterinary and Curbside Pickup. This is not so good" signal through the network. This is the headphones? ROBERT: Five, four, three, two, one, drop! And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. I was like, "Oh, my God! He was a, not a wiener dog. 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